How do you know they aren't?

Which part of my message are you responding too, I wrote a lot can you please be more specific?

On a side note, if this is going to be a thing (which I support in full) then I feel that everyone involved in making the map should get a slice of the pie or at least have an opportunity to benefit from this in accordance with how involved they were in the project. They can certainly decline their share of the donation, but it should be offered at least.

This part. The people who have spent a lot of time working with me on this map, which basically is one person, will be compensated fairly.

The paywall is incentive for people to actually contribute to the mapper instead of just taking the map for free and never coming back to make any sort of contribution. The debate is whether that's fair, not whether it helps the beta testing process.

I understand your logic in this situation Treminaor, but unfortunately, I have to disagree with you. Adding a pay-to-play feature to a map doesn't offer incentive, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't. Take Black Ops 3 BETA for example, how many little kids managed to convince their mother and/or father to pre-order it for them, just so they could show off to all their friends that they had the game? Probably a tonne of them.

Now, don't get me wrong, there would be people out there who got Black Ops 3 to actually test and help the community to patch any major/gamebreaking issues within them game itself. Where am I going with this? I'm basically comparing this map to it. This is still a BETA mind you, so they are very similar in the aspect that it's around 90-95% finalised already. But the point here is, plenty of little kids have managed to get a hold of a VISA card (or any bank card of that matter) and just spent the money to get the map and play it, and never tell of any bugs, but will show up on the release topic and bitch about the bugs upon release, and there would that handful of people who actually want to test the map out and to see how well it goes, looking for bugs etc. The same logic above can also be applied to requiem.

The major downfall of these maps is the publicity it gets from YT channels like YAW, MrDalekJD, Laggin24x etc, is what kills these maps, because these channels have 100's of 1000's of fans, and all they want to do is whatever they are doing, which is playing these awesome maps, not report bugs, help the community, be a good bloke etc.

One final point to point out here, we all remember the map called Project Viking right? Of course we do, It was one of the single-biggest release of 2014 (possibly second only to The Swan). That map, was also a BETA, and was it a pay-to-play map? no, of course it wasn't. Plus, the mapper, Redspace200 told me himself that although the map wasn't a full release, and that he had no intention of fully releasing it, he was extremely happy with it staying as an open BETA for as long as it lives.

Case in point, this pay-to-play stand for this map does NOT incentive to come back and offer help in the form of bug reports. Donating to UGX-Mods because we want to see the mod come along as best as it can, and receive a map as a reward? All for it. Forcing people to donate to a mapper to be able to play the map as a way of saying 'Thank you'?
Nope.

I personally have an Idea to make it better. If you donated to this map, you should be gain access to something only a donator can have (custom player model, Custom name, extra options when hosting a co-op game, etc.) upon full release.

With regards,
JiffyNoodles

I understand your logic in this situation Treminaor, but unfortunately, I have to disagree with you. Adding a pay-to-play feature to a map doesn't offer incentive, I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.

I know for fact it does, we've had a donation button for 3+ years and it became about 1000x more active once there was a map behind it.

As far as the rest of your post I honestly don't see how it's even relevant.

I know for fact it does, we've had a donation button for 3+ years and it became about 1000x more active once there was a map behind it.

As far as the rest of your post I honestly don't see how it's even relevant.

Trem, please, hear me out, Your map, UGX Requiem, straight to UGX-Mods to fund the making of UGX-Mod Version 1.1.
This, this is mostly giving Stevie back the money he spent on the games he needed to rip models, anims, sounds etc.
I understand you're almighty and powerful, but yeah, the message was basically telling you people only donated to gain access to your map, then disappear into the abyss of the internet, never to be seen again.

(relevant info, you know, stuff you must've missed)

Case in point, this pay-to-play stand for this map does NOT incentive to come back and offer help in the form of bug reports. Donating to UGX-Mods because we want to see the mod come along as best as it can, and receive a map as a reward? All for it. Forcing people to donate to a mapper to be able to play the map as a way of saying 'Thank you'?
Nope.

If stevie uploaded the beta and said "Heres the open beta, please if you like the map make a donation in to my paypal." I would happily donate $4 or more but I'm not paying to play the map early!  The way I see it is your charging people to play it early,  there are many points that have been said many times before about the matter but that's just how I see it.  "Well its optional you don't have pay, you can wait for the public release"  True, but how long is that gonna be?  I mean Requiem taking its time (I do believe that there are plans for public release soon), he could never public release the map.

And what about me and all the other map makers?  Can we release some unfinished map say it's in "BETA" and then charge people to play it?  It looks like a slippery slope that could ruin the community, just because someone wanted some money for there work.

I know for fact it does, we've had a donation button for 3+ years and it became about 1000x more active once there was a map behind it.

As far as the rest of your post I honestly don't see how it's even relevant.

But Trem,
 with the donation we get special inside info on [CENSORED: TOP SECRET] and on the side of getting a rank that would last permanently. We would be recognized by donating for you to get more props for the UGX store and maybe another engine to work on.

With Oil Rig, We would just be donating for a map that will be free in just about a week. Not to mention I'm not paying after the whole "event" between MZ and Stevie, yet He gains the audacity to ask for money from me?

And what about me and all the other map makers? Can we release some unfinished map say it's in "BETA" and then charge people to play it? It looks like a slippery slope

First of all NO ONE would even concider donating to someone making a shitty BOXMAP BETA lol so there is no slips or slopes then again if you make even half as decent map as oilrig then maby you should be on the first page on ugx but lets stop speculating and get real since i doubt you will make something like oilrig anyways there is no need for this hypothetical discussion. However if you DO it then welcome back 2016-2017 when your map is up to snuff and we can talk about it then...

Trem, please, hear me out, Your map, UGX Requiem, straight to UGX-Mods to fund the making of UGX-Mod Version 1.1.
This, this is mostly giving Stevie back the money he spent on the games he needed to rip models, anims, sounds etc.

What do you think funds the making of UGX Mod V.1.1? More than anything, and I'm sure Trem will agree, it's the sheer man hours that is the biggest problem. Sure, you could make a shitty mod/map in a short amount a time, and sure you could try to make it donation only. Like Radi says, is anyone going to pay for that? Of course not, such a lame argument to say 'well everyone is going to do this now'. Since I've been in the scene, I can count about 3 maybe 4 maps that are of the standard that I would happily pay for them. The rest I don't even download when they are free!

With Oil Rig, We would just be donating for a map that will be free in just about a week. Not to mention I'm not paying after the whole "event" between MZ and Stevie, yet He gains the audacity to ask for money from me?

Lol. After what? A discussion about a flag that you weren't even involved in in any way at all?
And clearly it wouldn't be a week. More like 2 months. In fact I'm thinking about setting an exact date for full release so people can't whine about 'well he'll just never release it now'.

I know for fact it does, we've had a donation button for 3+ years and it became about 1000x more active once there was a map behind it.

I said this earlier but people refused to believe it; people rarely donate out of the kindness of their heart alone, you might think 'well if they enjoy the map and there's a donate button people will happily donate' like fuck they will. 99% of people will only 'donate' if they know they are getting something in return. It's a fact.

Anyway, since it's not really a beta, it's more like early access, it should have been named as such to avoid any confusion.

place your bets here folks! 90%  of the UGX community vs UGX site mods, owners and Steviewonder, its gonna be a great night Only on ESPN

I said this earlier but people refused to believe it; people rarely donate out of the kindness of their heart alone, you might think 'well if they enjoy the map and there's a donate button people will happily donate' like fuck they will. 99% of people will only 'donate' if they know they are getting something in return. It's a fact.

I don't think 99% of people on UGX have donated, lol.

IMO, If your putting something like a map behind a paywall then its no longer a donation. At that point you are selling a product in exchange for money, which i don't think should be allowed. A major reason why the modding scene(not just this one, but others too) is the fact that mods are free. If people have to pay for mods(beta or full) then people will no longer want to download them.

IMO, If your putting something like a map behind a paywall then its no longer a donation. At that point you are selling a product in exchange for money, which i don't think should be allowed. A major reason why the modding scene(not just this one, but others too) is the fact that mods are free. If people have to pay for mods(beta or full) then people will no longer want to download them.

Basically what I stated earlier on in the topic but my reply seemed to get no attention despite the backup/evidence it has pertaining to the subject, so here it is again.

Can you give me one single instance, in the history of CZ, where someone has donated to a mapper to show appreciation?

Yes, an example would actually be to me from TheRelaxingEnd. Relaxing donated the Black Ops 2 season pass, Black Ops 3, and Rocket League. By definition those count as donations as a donation is (quote from dictionary) "an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution." therefore it does not have to necessarily be a monetary gift.

The problem I have with the whole situation is that people have the idea that modders (rather use the term modders rather than mappers because a) these are all mods in the end for CoD and b) mappers only include a part of the community, while the other half [or less] are people who make mods whether for SP, ZM, or MP) should be compensated for the work they put into maps. The moment you hit that button that says Compile Map or Build Mod, or even just start making a map in Radiant, everything you worked on no longer is yours, it is Activision's. Therefore, none of us "own" or "created" the mods/maps that we released, they are Activision's. Of course out of the respect for the person who put the time to throw it together, we do credit at least the person for what they did, but legally that's as far as it goes. Activision gave us the mod tools with the EULA that clearly states that we can use the mod tools "for your own personal, non-commercial use in order to create the New Game Materials" (New Game Materials being defined as "new maps, missions, game levels, environments and/or other related game materials for personal use in and with Call of Duty: World at War") with the first bullet point under the License Conditions stating that you "agree that, as a condition to your using the Program Utilities, you will not use ... the Program Utilities and/or the New Game Materials created by you for any commercial purposes, including, but not limited to, selling, renting, leasing, licensing, distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of the Program Utilities or the New Game Materials, whether on a stand alone basis or packaged in combination with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution." with the second point reiterating the statement that "If you decide to make available the use of the New Game Materials created by you to other gamers, you agree to do so solely without charge." So why do people all of a sudden think that we should have the right to have some sort of monetary gain out of tools given to us under the clear restriction that says we are not allowed to? It is pretty obvious even by statements made by Stevie that he is more interested in the money gained out of this.


When you "donate" to someone, you do not expect anything in return from that person. You donated as a way of giving thanks to the person for the work they've done. Stating that you must "donate" to have access to what should be a non-commercial item is no longer a "donation", it is a payment, so I'm baffled by the counter arguments of people trying to justify what is in the end selling a mod/map. Of course this may seem contradictory to me being I donated to the site, but my intent for donating was not because of the fact I wanted to play maps from UGX early on (considering I don't even have World at War installed it'd seem pointless). I donated (despite the small amount it was) because I respect the time and work spent on the site. UGX is the only forum I regularly participate in for WaW because it is the only real active forum that doesn't have the same handful of people posting over and over again in each others topics.

Then there is the arguments of YouTubers/Twitch streamers who "generate profits off of mapper's/modder's content". What they make profits off of is the ads displayed on the video, not the actual video itself. If a YouTuber had a video with ads, but all of their viewers had something like AdBlock running, they'd generate no profits at all, and it's because of the viewers they make profits. The money made is not from what they show, it's merely the little 5-30 second ads you skip/watch before you actually see what you are there to see.

I don't think 99% of people on UGX have donated, lol.

IMO, If your putting something like a map behind a paywall then its no longer a donation. At that point you are selling a product in exchange for money, which i don't think should be allowed. A major reason why the modding scene(not just this one, but others too) is the fact that mods are free. If people have to pay for mods(beta or full) then people will no longer want to download them.

Where the fuck did I say that? 

And Rollon, we heard you the first time, no need to repost that block of text again, it's already in this thread. I know people are desperate to get their 2 cents in though.

Also RelaxingEnd buying you some games is just as much a 'donation' as this is, unless you're going to lie and say he didn't get anything in return from you?

place your bets here folks! 90%  of the UGX community vs UGX site mods, owners and Steviewonder, its gonna be a great night Only on ESPN

Except it's nothing like 90%.

There are 150,000+ members on UGX, the vast majority of whom don't interact with the site in any meaningful way other than to download maps and leave. There are about maybe 30-40 actual core posters here. Many of whom don't particularly like me for whatever reason (I mean I'm so lovable I don't get it?).

Incidentally, the people with this pseudo-outrage posting on this thread are part of the aforementioned 30-40 core members. Now in this thread alone there are quite a few people indifferent to, or outright supporting it, including well respected, long time members of this community like Treminaor, Tomikaze, DeathBringerZen, Bluntstuffy, Radimax, myself and others.

Sure there's a few people who want to whine, and God knows this 'community' loves to jump in on a bit of drama, and make their voices louder than anyone else's. But there's maybe 10-15 people out of the actual core members who have expressed any dislike to this whole thing. The other 150,000+ members are blissfully unaware of this whole fiasco and just want to play the map, which, not to blow my own horn or anything, is actually pretty decent.

So anyway actually it would be more like 0.001% of the community. Just for argument's sake.

For the love of god I wanna test this map, can someone please take my money* so that I can play it? Stevie, help me out here bro, don't leave your buddy Tom out in the cold - I want in on this.

*donation of my own free will/not payment

Look end of story.
We may not agree/like what stevie did about paying or whatever. Personally, I don't, but it's not our business, I mean did stevie hurt us in anyway. If you say that he did by making his map for money, then I have to say no, this is his business, and he can do whatever he wishes to do and it's his RIGHT btw, and we are not even to question him why( I mean his reasons are his, because it's his business). Believe me, if I were stevie, I would consider doing the same, as it's my right to do so.

The only thing that bothered me is that, this would encourage people to make their maps for money. It's still their business, but I don't see any good future on the forum if this continues, people would not pay, and nothing will be given in a kindhearted manner, all people would become money hungry.