T4M - why all the hate?

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What is people's problem with T4M? Whenever a map gets released with it, it gets swamped with comments from people bitching about the fact it requires a 3mb file (and if you own it on disc then a 5mb lan fix file). What is the logic here?

Before, people loved to bitch about WAW limits and how they suck and ruin maps and restrict us and are needless, etc. etc. Now, there's an amazing mod that basically doubles the limits, and people still find a way to bitch about that!? Lmao. Never ceases to amaze how this 'community' finds new and creative ways to bitch about stuff for the sake of it.

I've had absolutely ZERO issues at all with T4M, it does what it's supposed to and I haven't even noticed the fact I have it other than my map actually loads despite having more stuff than it 'should'. I guess that's what people want? They prefer to have a map with less stuff in it than one with more that goes over the limits?

I can understand totally the logic that almost all the maps so far with it haven't 'needed' it at all, and that better asset management would easily bring it down to under WAW limits. Of course, this is laziness and often ignorance on the mapper's part, but tbh there is no reason why everyone who plays (and especially maps) CZ shouldn't have T4M installed already anyway (other than being stubborn).

But for my map for example, I was already at the memory limit, and most of the others were on the brink, and I spent months sorting out the mod and fighting against the limits and what I could and couldn't include. You can take my word for it that WAW cannot fit much/any more than the original Oil Rig, and that almost every single asset loaded is done so because it is required.

Since I installed T4M I've added a few new areas, new sounds, new quotes, new guns, new fx, and loads more shit, and I don't even have to hold my breath every time I load the map fearing that dreaded 'crash to desktop' sound you get.

A lot of the extra stuff I added now isn't 'required' of course, I'm sure the original Oil Rig has more than enough in it for most people, but if I can, why not? It has no negative affect on my game and just makes my life a hell of a lot easier. Tbh, I could probably get away with the all the limits without T4M other than the memory limit, and with the BO3 guns, the image/mtl limit. And, for reference, this is a typical BO3 gun's images -



That's one gun without any attachments. Try fit 7-8 of those on top of an already fully packed map and not hit any limits. I don't care how good you are at managing assets. Having said that, since most maps aren't using BO3 models and such, there is obviously no need for T4M for the majority of mappers right now. But to have people making idiotic statements like 'I don't play T4M maps' is just ridiculous; why would people not want to have maps that exceed what was previously capable in WAW? BO3 mod tools will be out soon and WAW will soon be obsolete, why not have it go out on a high and have maps that actually even push the T4M limits, let alone the WAW ones?

TL:DR - Why the fuck are people bitching about T4M?
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Sorry, I'm out of the loop. Are there any downsides to T4M? I can't really imagine why anyone would dislike something this good.
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Initially I feared installing the T4M, cause I didn't read, now I install and remove it back and forth checking things on a weekly bases.

One, I don't think people realize it is as simple as copying a file into your root folder and then removing it, I didn't.
Two, I have friends that can't download it, let alone know where their "root" folder is.

Besides that, and the one time I had a wall of flame texture across my screen using it, I haven't had any issues with it, and leave it installed most of the time, and don't even realize it is required until one of my friends can't play a map... It would be great if they would add something, not much different than how they add the load screen bik file, for the T4M, to the UGX installer. Then it would be up to the modder to get the latest version of the T4M and have it installed when installing their map...?

BO3 mod tools will be out soon and WAW will soon be obsolete

Meh, Idk about that one... I'll prob stick around waw stuff unless the community dies off. My pc doesn't much like BO3 anyway.
Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 09:30:18 pm by MakeCents
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So wait. How many people are bitching about T4M? I see alot of people not agreeing with the increased use of it, which on a map that doesn't need it, it's a lazy way to prevent hitting limits.

So maybe the new mappers don't know how to manage assets properly. They use T4M. What? By not using t4m, and therefore managing your assets more properly, you learn more along the way. There is no downside to it directly, besides a bit more work, which shouldn't be an issue. Modding isn't a walk in the park, so you can't skip things all the time. Sometimes things take time.

I like T4M. I never said I didn't like T4M directly. What I don't like is when a mapper stamps it on because they won't try to figure out how to manage their assets, or can't be arsed to do it. I don't like laziness ( Though I can be lazy myself sometimes, I try my best not to be lazy when it comes to modding CoD:WaW), and in the case of modding, especially not.

It's a good thing to manage your assets, to have control and learn about the limits instead of just pushing them back because you won't/can't manage them.

Now, in cases like Leviathan. Project C and so forth, you see these extraordinary maps that don't need T4M? So if they can do it, I can easily see a lesser big map being able to do it as well. But when I see a map, such as Oil Rig, it's different. I see how much is in this mod. I see how big it is, and I can understand that he is hitting alot of limits. I don't mind him using T4M the slightest bit, go ahead. But please, if you don't need it, don't use it just because you won't manage your assets properly.

Don't mind installing T4M, don't mind T4M itself, but I do mind it when people use it as an easy way out. If your map doesn't need it, don't use it. That's my view on it.

If you live 200 meters from a restaurant, you don't need to drive there. You can walk. You exercise, and it's better for you. The car is an easy way out that isn't needed.  ;)
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Initially I feared installing the T4M, cause I didn't read, now I install and remove it back and forth checking things on a weekly bases.

One, I don't think people realize it is as simple as copying a file into your root folder and then removing it, I didn't.
Two, I have friends that can't download it, let alone know where their "root" folder is.

Besides that, and the one time I had a wall of flame texture across my screen using it, I haven't had any issues with it, and leave it installed most of the time, and don't even realize it is required until one of my friends can't play a map... It would be great if they would add something, not much different than how they add the load screen bik file, for the T4M, to the UGX installer. Then it would be up to the modder to get the latest version of the T4M and have it installed when installing their map...?

Meh, Idk about that one... I'll prob stick around waw stuff unless the community dies off. My pc doesn't much like BO3 anyway.

Well the community wouldn't 'die off', it would just move to BO3 of course lol. I can't see people still playing WAW when people will be making crazy BO3 custom maps, maybe a few cheapskates (who ironically will be the ones begging people to add the latest BO3 stuff into WAW ::) ) And most PCs don't get along that great with BO3 tbh, but hopefully by the time the tools come out it will be patched to perfection...

One, I don't think people realize it is as simple as copying a file into your root folder and then removing it, I didn't.

And this is true I think, it's even a commonly held (and irritating) misconception that T4M 'doesn't work' with the disc version of WAW which is just complete bullshit. I have the 'disc' (no-CD) version of WAW and I installed T4M in about 4 seconds (I had the lan fix already laying around in my downloads to make things even easier).
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So wait. How many people are bitching about T4M? I see alot of people not agreeing with the increased use of it, which on a map that doesn't need it, it's a lazy way to prevent hitting limits.

So maybe the new mappers don't know how to manage assets properly. They use T4M. What? By not using t4m, and therefore managing your assets more properly, you learn more along the way. There is no downside to it directly, besides a bit more work, which shouldn't be an issue. Modding isn't a walk in the park, so you can't skip things all the time. Sometimes things take time.

I like T4M. I never said I didn't like T4M directly. What I don't like is when a mapper stamps it on because they won't try to figure out how to manage their assets, or can't be arsed to do it. I don't like laziness ( Though I can be lazy myself sometimes, I try my best not to be lazy when it comes to modding CoD:WaW), and in the case of modding, especially not.

It's a good thing to manage your assets, to have control and learn about the limits instead of just pushing them back because you won't/can't manage them.

Now, in cases like Leviathan. Project C and so forth, you see these extraordinary maps that don't need T4M? So if they can do it, I can easily see a lesser big map being able to do it as well. But when I see a map, such as Oil Rig, it's different. I see how much is in this mod. I see how big it is, and I can understand that he is hitting alot of limits. I don't mind him using T4M the slightest bit, go ahead. But please, if you don't need it, don't use it just because you won't manage your assets properly.

Don't mind installing T4M, don't mind T4M itself, but I do mind it when people use it as an easy way out. If your map doesn't need it, don't use it. That's my view on it.

If you live 200 meters from a restaurant, you don't need to drive there. You can walk. You exercise, and it's better for you. The car is an easy way out that isn't needed.  ;)

Yes, but you (and others) outright said 'I don't play T4M maps'. :poker:

The criticism should be directed at the mapper, not the mod, and it should be judged on an individual basis.
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no but ou can manage your other assets, perks itselff can't destroy the fx limit, aswell as the models, materials, and images those aren't enough to destroy the limits unless you have a ton of unneeded f's, models and materials, so yes it is your fault.
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outright 'I don't play T4M maps'
Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 09:54:39 pm by RadimaX
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Exofile alot of your argument is invalid because there a middle of the line mappers like myself. I know how to do way more than most intro mappers which is evident in my last release. I am working with what I have and that's Harrybo21 perks which is enough to destroy the fx limit. Those perks are perfect but come with a price.

If raw assets were available to all this could be fixed. I am working with fast files because thats all I have. What about people like me? I can't manage a god damn fast file

Invalid? There are tons of "middle of the line" mappers. I would maybe consider myself one of them. And noone is telling you that you HAVE to use Harry's perks? Alot of people make their own perks, just requires some basic scripting knowledge, which I am pretty sure you can learn here. You choose to use a fastfile because you don't do it yourself, or don't have the raw assets. That is your own choice, and if you really wanted to put effort into it, I'm sure you'd learn alot of stuff by scripting and porting things yourself.  :)

Yes, but you (and others) outright said 'I don't play T4M maps'. :poker:

The criticism should be directed at the mapper, not the mod, and it should be judged on an individual basis.

I said that, poorly worded as I often am, as a way to tell the mapper, that I wouldn't play the map because I don't support the use of T4M on it :please:

I have nothing against T4M. I have something against the way some people use it. I'll play your Oil Rig, because I KNOW that you hit the limit. My decision to play a T4M map varies from map to map, and in most cases, it's used in a way I don't think is needed. So by saying I won't play the map, I'm telling the mapper; "Hey, your map shouldn't have T4M". I try to make sure to explain that, although I am often a moron, I won't lie. :)

When I said "I don't play maps using T4M", it was pointed at Nate's map. I worded it poorly, I know.  :D

other assets arent using fx

There are quite a few fx's that are loaded, that you don't need.
Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 09:57:44 pm by Exofile
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other assets arent using fx
abviously theres a lot of unneeded assets loaded in the cvs cause there are very few x used for the perks
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How to do a successful map step one:
Just add over 400+ fx (Obviously) its not like you get warned or anything, then paste in t4m files to root, then make people download cracked lanfix from some site,  now you have 2 shortcuts one to cracked game and one to legit game you paid for that ironicly wont even run the codwaw custom zombie map you try to play.

clearly all thats is way better then traditional:
install&play

by the way not hate on T4M or mapper using it only personal opinion
Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 10:26:40 pm by RadimaX
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I don't see the point of having to manage the assets to be below WaW limits if we have T4M.
If this had been an official update of the game there wouldn't have been any problems. There wouldn't be people saying you have to manage your assets to be in the original WaW (shitty) limits. So you can think it's just an update that improves the game. You install it once and forget about it the rest of the time.

Alot of people make their own perks, just requires some basic scripting knowledge
For this I just want to say it's not just basic knowledge what you need. I think I have a good (or medium :P) scripting knowledge and I don't think I'll be capable to script the perks (probably jugg  :please:).
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How to do a successful map step one:
Just add over 400+ fx (Obviously) its not like you get warned or anything, then paste in t4m files to root, then make people download cracked lanfix from some site,  now you have 2 shortcuts one to cracked game and one to legit game you paid for that ironicly wont even run the codwaw custom zombie map you try to play.

clearly all thats is way better then traditional:
install&play

by the way not hate on T4M or mapper using it only personal opinion

yeh, it's outrageous to use a MOD to play a MOD, ikr   :troll:
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I don't see the point of having to manage the assets to be below WaW limits if we have T4M.
If this had been an official update of the game there wouldn't have been any problems. There wouldn't be people saying you have to manage your assets to be in the original WaW (shitty) limits. So you can think it's just an update that improves the game. You install it once and forget about it the rest of the time.
For this I just want to say it's not just basic knowledge what you need. I think I have a good (or medium :P) scripting knowledge and I don't think I'll be capable to script the perks (probably jugg  :please:).

Alot of people see it your way.  :D

I feel that if you have the potential to make it not require t4m, don't make it require t4m. An update on waw is mandatory most of the time to continue playing the game, based on the game that is, but the point isn't that I want people to stay below the limits. I want them to learn how to properly manage it. It's an unecessary step added into the installation of a mod, and no, not everyone has T4M by now. New people still come in every day, and alot of people seem to not speak english as well, seem to not be understandable of tutorials well and so forth.'

Make it as easy of an installation for the user as you can, please. You should be making the mod for the players that will play it, not just because you're making it. Think of how they want it. That's just my view on it.  8)
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I don't see the point of having to manage the assets to be below WaW limits if we have T4M.
If this had been an official update of the game there wouldn't have been any problems. There wouldn't be people saying you have to manage your assets to be in the original WaW (shitty) limits. So you can think it's just an update that improves the game. You install it once and forget about it the rest of the time.

So you don't see the point in optimization? kden.

My big problem lies with mappers releasing these large file size maps that are as unoptimized as hell (I can recall maps that ran worse than Leviathan on my old PC but..you get it...) yet you get into the map, and you start wondering why other maps of MUCH larger scale got by without T4M but this didn't..and some of these maps don't even have that much in it, some just don't know how to remove FX, maybe remove bloody WAW guns, comment some sounds, etc., this lack of knowledge is acceptable but there are tutorials for this stuff, and there are other ways to get around it without a bloody DLL file.

Yes I understand this raises the bar for what we can do, yes I understand it takes 5 minutes less to install and yes I understand we've been asking for ages for this but I'm not downloading your 600MB box map which is hitting all limits because you forgot to remove some fx, sounds, etc.

Obviously in Stevie's example there is fuck all you can do, BO3 guns are large in size, same with guns from AW, etc. and if you came out with an update for Oil Rig that requires T4M I would gladly use it and play the game with it.

Same goes if FS Nuketown came out tomorrow and required T4M, I would have no issue, but if Box Plus v2 came out and it required it I would tell the maker to piss off.


 

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