The topic, do we edit others maps and do we tell non-modders how to edit peoples maps, was brought up in a post and has been requested to be closed, but continues to gain popularity and opinions, off topic of course... so if there is still desire to discuss this further I put this here...

There are clear rules on this site that say not to use other peoples work without permission, and to give proper credit, but does it say not to modify it or show others how to modify it? I'm sure we can't modify and redistribute, but if you teach everyone how to modify it, isn't that what you are essentially doing?

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My thoughts:
To me, if you want to modify maps, or anything for that matter, you should learn how. I don't personally think people should be given a handout with all the answers on it in any aspect in life. (Without any effort) Trade things sure, hint answers sure, guides how to figure it out yes, since no one can know it all, but just handed without deserving it... If you are a modder and are doing that to someones work, then I am sure you have a reason, or like the person who's map you are modifying, cause we all have our own shit to waste time on... If not, then I still don't care, cause I know I don't mod out of disrespect, I do it to make something more enjoyable for me.

I hoped someone would finally make this topic, now I can take more part in this without it being off-topic.

I don't generally hate people, who use cheats to turn on god mode and such, but modifying the mod to remove/add features or asking mapper directly about how to cheat in their own maps is something I don't really approve on. I don't like, when people come straight to me asking about how to use cheats in my maps. Its fine, if they do use them, but asking me how to enable them is disrespectful in my opinion. I don't know why people started to talk about laws in this case, it's purely about if you respect the mapper/modder. Mapper made his/her map for free, why then modify it to be ideal to you? Mapper made it to be ideal for him and if you want to change some aspects, then make your own version (opinions is welcome, but modifying without permission, no)

I think if you want to change up stuff in someone else's map then you should figure out how to do it yourself.

The first thing I ever did modding wise was to change up some guns (I hated the laggy WAW PAP Colt (the Biatch w/e it's called) so I'd always copy over my own weaponfile I made for my own PAP colt, and I'd stick that in any maps that used stock weapons to give me an incentive to keep my starting pistol. Because of messing with that I figured out how easy it was to modify weaponfiles so I made my own set of stock weapons changing whatever it was I didn't like about the stock guns (more ammo, more damage, etc). I also changed up the PAP camo in my raw so that overwrote the stock PAP camo people used in their maps (or if they replaced using the same names) - technically that isn't modding anyone's map that's modding my own raw but the same idea. From there I figured I might as well try making my own maps, and here I am now.

Long story short, I think you can mod people's stuff if it's solely for your/your friend's amusement sure, but figure out how to do it yourself, don't come asking on here, because it tends to piss off mappers having people ask how to change stuff they spent time making it EXACTLY as it is the way you downloaded it.

100% ethical IMO.

Playing Custom Zombies isn't like playing in a CS:GO league. It isn't a competition, its just for fun.

Not to mention that it could make maps that were previously unplayable(*cough*Leviathan*cough*) playable because you could just release a patch and fix it... which is A LOT of maps right now. Or bring new life entirely with new features & gamemodes.

100% ethical IMO.

Playing Custom Zombies isn't like playing in a CS:GO league. It isn't a competition, its just for fun.

Not to mention that it could make maps that were previously unplayable(*cough*Leviathan*cough*) playable because you could just release a patch and fix it... which is A LOT of maps right now. Or bring new life entirely with new features & gamemodes.

Umm, releasing 'unofficial' patches for other people's maps with no consent from the mappers themselves is just a dick move.

Umm, releasing 'unofficial' patches for other people's maps with no consent from the mappers themselves is just a dick move.

i second this!

IMO if the player is having problems with surviving because its "too hard" because of too many zombies or because they made sprinters from the start. Then i dont see any reason the player couldnt either edit the script to remove the sprinters or enable godmode in order to actually be able explore the map. but asking people on the forum "how do i change the features of this map?" is too far

Umm, releasing 'unofficial' patches for other people's maps with no consent from the mappers themselves is just a dick move.

Yeah it is but what other choice is there when they refuse to actually fix them? Let the maps collect dust? If so, the people making these maps are practically disrespecting themselves and the amount of time they spent working on it.

Yeah it is but what other choice is there when they refuse to actually fix them? Let the maps collect dust? If so, the people making these maps are practically disrespecting themselves and the amount of time they spent working on it.

Leviathan team would have fixed most of the issues, but Pieman cant compile anything due to his mod tools. So you cant really say they are refusing to fix the issues

Leviathan team would have fixed most of the issues, but Pieman cant compile anything due to his mod tools. So you cant really say they are refusing to fix the issues

Well you don't need mod tools to edit GSC files from an IWD(scripts included in a FF can be decompiled and added to an IWD too) so no, he may not be able to fix everything but maybe just enough so you don't get a Gspawn error on higher rounds.

But i digress. Getting a little off-topic.

But Leviathan is just one example of many maps that could really use an unofficial patch IMO and why i think its ethical. So many maps with good map/level design but have script related issues that hurt the experience or make it outright unplayable.

Yes there's a general ethics guideline to "us" but the one thing people don't get right is, as a community, you should be working with others to create content that's fun for everyone regardless of your own thoughts. If you assume locking things down is the way to fix everything you're sadly mistaken.

Scripts are one example people release scripts (such as me) to the public and don't get butthurt when someone looks at it because why should I? I released it for public to look at, then comes when it's packed into a fastfile since this is inside a compiled file a tool must be used to extract the file which brings up the legality of it. I generally don't care about reusing code from other developers as it's usually shit in the first place, I take a look at it to find issues to bring up with the original developer (HitmanVere. When people find issues with anything they report them (usually), as for some people they take it into their hands to fix things released (daedra) which is totally fair play in my opinion. You'd take a buggy map over a "non-official" patch that fixes them, okay.

Also don't forget that when someone "mods" a map what's the likelyhood of it actually breaking anything? Mods should be played the way people like it, they're not going to reupload the map and do

As it's easily detectable who owns the original map. If you don't like people changing things in your mod in order for them to enjoy your content then ignore them. Why the hell should you care? They're a handful of hundreds (or thousands) of people playing w/o any changes and still enjoying it.

We all came from somewhere, I came from modifying QCZM v3.0 (or whatever the hell version it was) from MW2 and now I'm here. I asked friends on the most stupidest questions (what's an array, how do I play sounds in a loop?). Eventually the stupidest of people will become better (unless you're just naturally retarded and don't have any drive/passion to improve yourself). The more people who dabble in small things will sooner or later start generating their own content which is what we all want, more content to enjoy.

/end

There's probably some errors in here as I'm writing this at 10PM and I could give less shits about it since I'm ranting about how the fucking ZM community is totally fucking bad nowadays thanks to some "tools" (more or less).

Yes there's a general ethics guideline to "us" but the one thing people don't get right is, as a community, you should be working with others to create content that's fun for everyone regardless of your own thoughts. If you assume locking things down is the way to fix everything you're sadly mistaken.

Scripts are one example people release scripts (such as me) to the public and don't get butthurt when someone looks at it because why should I? I released it for public to look at, then comes when it's packed into a fastfile since this is inside a compiled file a tool must be used to extract the file which brings up the legality of it. I generally don't care about reusing code from other developers as it's usually shit in the first place, I take a look at it to find issues to bring up with the original developer (HitmanVere. When people find issues with anything they report them (usually), as for some people they take it into their hands to fix things released (daedra) which is totally fair play in my opinion. You'd take a buggy map over a "non-official" patch that fixes them, okay.

Also don't forget that when someone "mods" a map what's the likelyhood of it actually breaking anything? Mods should be played the way people like it, they're not going to reupload the map and do
(Image removed from quote.)
As it's easily detectable who owns the original map. If you don't like people changing things in your mod in order for them to enjoy your content then ignore them. Why the hell should you care? They're a handful of hundreds (or thousands) of people playing w/o any changes and still enjoying it.

We all came from somewhere, I came from modifying QCZM v3.0 (or whatever the hell version it was) from MW2 and now I'm here. I asked friends on the most stupidest questions (what's an array, how do I play sounds in a loop?). Eventually the stupidest of people will become better (unless you're just naturally retarded and don't have any drive/passion to improve yourself). The more people who dabble in small things will sooner or later start generating their own content which is what we all want, more content to enjoy.

/end

There's probably some errors in here as I'm writing this at 10PM and I could give less shits about it since I'm ranting about how the fucking ZM community is totally fucking bad nowadays thanks to some "tools" (more or less).

Like I said, I don't mind people changing up stuff to make the map more enjoyable for them, but they should figure it out on their own, like I did, which led to me to making my own maps. I think an 'unofficial patch' that fixes a map is preferable to a buggy map, but you should get permission from the people who made said map first - it's not too much to ask to simply ask the people who spent a year or whatever on a project whether or not you can release public modifications to their work - that's should go without saying really. It's like saying 'rape is better than no sex at all right?' (extreme example there lmao but you get the point.)

THIS IS A COPY AND PASTE OF MY POST ON THE OTHER TOPIC. I JUST FELT LIKE MOVING IT HERE.

now i feel kinda on the fence about this one.

as i am a self proclaimed mapper and i haven't released a map yet. i can't really relate.
but the mod tools were given to us by treyarch right? they gave them to us so that we can enact our imaginations and create maps that they didn't. as treyarch is on a you do what we say or we don't pay you contract with activision and have a time limit to make their map packs. they really don't have much of a say in the process. so they made the mod tools so that we as the community who don't have those contracts can.

the mod tools are basically a sand box. the quake engine is the wooden/plastic barriers that hold the sand inside and cod waw is the sand. the sand is open to anyone to play with and the mod tools are the buckets, shovels, rakes, etc. that we use to sculpt the sand into whatever our imagination comes up with. they are open to the public. now if i made a really awesome sandcastle and someone came along and said "hey this sandcastle would be better if you did this" and changed/altered my sandcastle to look like what they believe was better i would be pissed. especially if by changing my sandcastle made it crumble and fall apart! now all of the people around see this crumble broken sandcastle and think wow thats really bad. and believe that you are just bad at making sandcastles. but they don't know that the reason it's like that is because, some douchebag came along and changed it. but on the other hand what if the change the guy did made it better. that would be cool but then that guy goes around tell everyone that he made this awesome sandcastle. now everyone thinks that, he is the one that made it. and you get a little bit of credit from him when he says that you helped make it.

lets look at this from another perspective say minecraft. you build this awesome house that youve been making for like three years right. so you turn it into a survival minigame map. somebody gets into your minigame maps core files makes a copy of it and alters it to their liking and then releases the map elsewhere. but in their changing they accidentaly create a game breaking bug. now people come along and find this minigame and think wow this is stupid and buggy and tell other people that this minigame is stupid and doesn't work so now people think that this minigame is the original map. and now the original creator is losing players because the map wasn't what some guy felt was the perfect minigame.

as i said before i'm on the fence about this. this is a touchy topic. whatever side you are on just remember that these tools were a gift to us and have since been taken away in other games. thank you and have a nice day ELYKSON OUT 

the mod tools are basically a sand box. the quake engine is the wooden/plastic barriers that hold the sand inside and cod waw is the sand. the sand is open to anyone to play with and the mod tools are the buckets, shovels, rakes, etc. that we use to sculpt the sand into whatever our imagination comes up with. they are open to the public. now if i made a really awesome sandcastle and someone came along and said "hey this sandcastle would be better if you did this" and changed/altered my sandcastle to look like what they believe was better i would be pissed. especially if by changing my sandcastle made it crumble and fall apart! now all of the people around see this crumble broken sandcastle and think wow thats really bad. and believe that you are just bad at making sandcastles. but they don't know that the reason it's like that is because, some douchebag came along and changed it. but on the other hand what if the change the guy did made it better. that would be cool but then that guy goes around tell everyone that he made this awesome sandcastle. now everyone thinks that, he is the one that made it. and you get a little bit of credit from him when he says that you helped make it.

lets look at this from another perspective say minecraft. you build this awesome house that youve been making for like three years right. so you turn it into a survival minigame map. somebody gets into your minigame maps core files makes a copy of it and alters it to their liking and then releases the map elsewhere. but in their changing they accidentaly create a game breaking bug. now people come along and find this minigame and think wow this is stupid and buggy and tell other people that this minigame is stupid and doesn't work so now people think that this minigame is the original map. and now the original creator is losing players because the map wasn't what some guy felt was the perfect minigame.

Your assuming that the minigame works to begin with, which in the case of the mods released(minigames == mods) they usually don't. Always some random script fail that people can't be bothered to fix before releasing the map that hurts the experience.

You can make the best map in the world but if the scripting is bad then you might as well have just made a box map to begin with, because no one will ever get to enjoy what you spent time making(at least to its fullest).

Your assuming that the minigame works to begin with, which in the case of the mods released(minigames == mods) they usually don't. Always some random script fail that people can't be bothered to fix before releasing the map that hurts the experience.

You can make the best map in the world but if the scripting is bad then you might as well have just made a box map to begin with, because no one will ever get to enjoy what you spent time making(at least to its fullest).

as i said before i'm not playing one side. in any kind of work there are variables. and any one variable can cause unexpected results. when an inexperienced person goes fumbling blindly through another persons script(even if it's absolutely perfect) to add or remove dog rounds (or anything for that matter) they may change something either on purpose or on accident. and with any kind of scripting, even an extra space can fuck up an entire script. my point is that tinkering with another persons map/mod can be dangerous for the original poster. say the guy/girl changes something and mistakenly adds a space or linebreak into the script, forgets to close out a function, misspells something, ETC. this can mess up an entire map/mod. and if the original poster gets burned for that, that's just not right. we each have our own opinions both are right and wrong.

as i said before i'm not playing one side. in any kind of work there are variables. and any one variable can cause unexpected results. when an inexperienced person goes fumbling blindly through another persons script(even if it's absolutely perfect) to add or remove dog rounds (or anything for that matter) they may change something either on purpose or on accident. and with any kind of scripting, even an extra space can fuck up an entire script. my point is that tinkering with another persons map/mod can be dangerous for the original poster. say the guy/girl changes something and mistakenly adds a space or linebreak into the script, forgets to close out a function, misspells something, ETC. this can mess up an entire map/mod. and if the original poster gets burned for that, that's just not right. we each have our own opinions both are right and wrong.

A space or new line isn't read by the compiler so that wouldn't do anything